Just another reason why Europe and America suck.

Peter Gazinya said:

I guess he's trying to say Europe and America suck because a million people were dying in Rwanda and they let it happen. So, if a million people were being slaughtered in RWANDA, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Rwanda sucks, just like this whole thread?

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:1orglaugh Couldn't have said it any better, PG! This one wouldn't even come close to qualifying as a bottom-seeded candidate (2nd alternate) for TOTH!

:rofl:

********** said:

bosses the UN into inaction

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The UN does a fine job of inaction and irrelevance by itself to need our help.



In any event the whole world sucks. Everybody is the bad guy. It would be more accurate to say there are just places that aren’t quite as bad as some others, but blaming us for what other people do is pretty unfair. Despite what people might think it isn't the US's duty to the world to stop every bad event that takes place. I get the feeling if the tables were reversed we wouldn't be getting tons of aid from other people, at least not aid that’s because of the kindness of their hearts. Now if people want to blame us for the things we have been involved in or situations we directly created then they can, there is plenty to choose from. I will admit there is a lot of things the US has done wrong, but this doesn't seem like something that we should take a disproportionate amount of blame for because we did not help. Blame should always go to where it is due.

Furthermore I am tired of even trying to help people that don't want to help themselves. It is always easier when you want somebody else to do your work for you. If they are unwilling to fight and die to make where they are better than they have no right to expect us to do it for them. Even then until we take car of every single person in this country I don't think we should be throwing our efforts to help people in other places unless there is something very important to our well being involved. That might sound harsh but if somebody else said that about where they live I wouldn't hold it against them a single bit. They don’t have a responsibility to help us any more than we do to them. A lot of people end up hating us no matter what we do. We do nothing we are blamed for that. We end up doing something then we are blamed for that also. I sometimes think the world wants it both ways, probably so they can receive the benefits of it from time to time.

If you really explore the root of the world's problems it comes down to the "haves" and the "have-nots".

Religion has exploited much of the world. They have given the poor and downtroden false hope for centuries. Look at the pyramids. Think those got built because the egyptians were bored one day? No...the pharaohs told them to and provided for them.

Same rings true with how some of these tribes and gangs in the world work. One guy convinces a young boy to follow him and he will get food and water. Only catch is, he has to carry a gun and kill someone.
Every race, color and creed has killed each other to some degree. China fought Japan, Americans battled Americans...hell, even the American Indian Tribes fought each other over land and food. Its our nature. Man is hard-wired to do this...and without complete awareness and understanding for his fellow man, it will continue. Yes, I do believe that many people that do follow a leader blindly into combat do it not only out of loyalty, but they do it for something in return. They want to be taken care of to some degree; Provided for. I love this stuff. Sorry. As I get older, I am fascinated with History and how we even got this far. Amazes me. History is repeating. And we certainly can't stop it.

As far as the "responsible for billions" comment goes...I don't think that should be taken seriously. I do believe that our government will do what it feels is necessary to protect this country and its "interests". If that means knowing beforehand what was going to happen on 9/11, and instructed to "let it happen", then so be it.
Do I feel that everything out there is a conspiracy? No. I don't think we're that smart. Arrogance and greed is the # uno problem that this country has. I see it at all levels of income to.

I'm gonna throw this into the mix. So, should I be responsible for Americans that have been on welfare and have 6 kids all MY life? Now, I will admit the link I inserted pertains to a family that is not on welfare...but it does put a strain on the fabric of our society and earth. Larry King's show tonight reported a father out in Colorado Springs that broke away from the Morman church had 53 children from eight different women. Necessary?
http://www.duggarfamily.com/

Typical rantings of a socialist ultra-liberal who thinks that one centralized government is the ultimate cure-all for every problem and that people are not responsible for their own well being. You must have been in tears in the late 80's/early 90's when most of the communist world collapsed and died.

Dean Wormer said:

Typical rantings of a socialist ultra-liberal who thinks that one centralized government is the ultimate cure-all for every problem and that people are not responsible for their own well being. You must have been in tears in the late 80's/early 90's when most of the communist world collapsed and died.

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Very good point,Dean.It seems that people all over the world expect government to take care of them.And if their own government can't do it,then they expect the United States or the Europeans to do it,and quite frankly,the European nations,(with the exception of Great Britain) have more economic problems than they can handle anyway.This "caring for the WORLD" philosophy has been dumped upon Europe and the United States who get blamed for everything.Where are Russia,China,India,Oil rich Saudi Arabia,Japan and other economic powers.The Americans and Europeans are at war now and we still give plenty to the world.We are not the keepers of the WORLD.We cannot settle every African Tribe dispute and every problem in every nation.The Sudan horror must be stopped,but DAMN,give some help and just stop spitting in the face of the Nations that do the most good and give the most..."Just another reason why Europe and America suck"?--What planet is that Guy from??By the way,what are the other reason that We suck?That We saved the world from Nazi and Japanese Imperial domination?/That We defeated communism economically without firing a missle?--THINK ABOUT IT!!-It's a LARGE World,who put Tony Blair and George Bush in charge of taking all the burden/blame.I think it is the Nations that do nothing that SUCK.Australia,Canada,Italy,etc..have pitched in to help,but most other Nations have done NOTHING in a long time.Put the blame where blame is due!!!!!!--

Peter Gazinya said:

I guess he's trying to say Europe and America suck because a million people were dying in Rwanda and they let it happen. So, if a million people were being slaughtered in RWANDA, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Rwanda sucks, just like this whole thread?

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Hurry! Hurry! Less than two hours to vote for "Thread Critique of the Week!"

My vote is for...:1orglaugh :hammer: :yahoo: Peter Gazinya's...oh, I can barely contain myself!:1orglaugh :o But yes, PG is absolutely correct: this thread sucks--this week and every week hence forth!

I really wouldn't worry about whomever wrote: "Just another reason why Europe and America suck"?- I'm sure this thread was started by a 10 year old.

Sweeper said:

Hotel Rwanda, see it. dope flick


It's basically about how this rich dark skinned black man in Rwanda, (dark dark skin usually meant you were a Hutu.,... light skin more slender and taller black people were considered Tunsi(sp?) ), who runs a hotel and ends up sheltering over 1,000 Tunsi, who are running from Hutu Militia who are under the belief its time they "cut the tall trees"... true story, summer of 1994 I believe is when all this went on... makes me think... what was I doing the summer of 94 while over 1 million innocent people(men, women, and primarily CHILDREN) were slaughtered with machetes and AK's.... it was a good movie nonetheless... ,

If my short term memory serves me correctly - The reason Tunsi people were light skinned and all that had somethin to do with Rwandan people interbreeding with Belgians during an era waaaaay back when Belgium had taken controll of the area or some shit I forget... so it's really GENOCIDE when you think about it, and the numbers? Hitlers 20 million person killing spree is hard to beat but he did it over the course of eight years. The Hutu militia killed over 1 million people in less than 4 days.
_________________

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Yep its a really good movie... we had to watch it in English class a couple years ago.

Perhaps we'd all go without six bedroom houses so that hundreds of guys in boxes on the streets could have one.

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I don't know about you but I don't have a six bedroom house. The idea of giving up my hard earned money or my family's hard earned money just doesn't sit well with me. Maybe I am just a hard heart right wing individualist or whatever, but no one gave up their six bedroom house so my father could benefit, and I am pretty sure no did it for his father.

Socialism is the future

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I don't see any facts supporting this argument, I mean I don't think China has any plans of becoming a socialist nation, and I also don't see the US making any plans to drop capitalism, and why should we, it is working great for us. I mean just when do you see this "social utopia" occuring when everybody does as Nightfly suggest? I don't see it happening in my lifetime.

You should see "Darwin's Nightmare" a new indie film... It is a sorry tale about Tanzania and country with no oil, but fish, that is what it comes to in regard to the 1st world nations

Sweeper said:

Hotel Rwanda, see it. dope flick ...
what was I doing the summer of 94 while over 1 million innocent people (men, women, and primarily CHILDREN) were slaughtered with machetes and AK's....

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Apparently you were oblivious to the genocide going on.
And now you're still oblivious to the reason why the US blocked the security council from acting.

Long story short, the Clinton administration was still realing from Mogudishu.
So he wanted to avoid sending in UN (which is signficiantly American) troops.
Remember, the Clinton administration had only been in office only a little over a year, and was still learning -- especially someone who had no military experience to draw upon.

Both of the Mogudishu Marketplace engagement and Rowanda UN Security Council moves were political ones made by the Clinton administration, largely due to his naivity and just plain'old cover your ass (CYA).
He got impatient, set high goals for the Deltas and Rangers without Sceptre Gunship support and US servicemen died (surprisingly not more).
He then remembered that fallout when he did everything he could to block the real need for UN peacekeepers in Rwanda.

I can't speak for the Belgians who setup the caste-like system long ago.
And I can't speak for the other nations, many European, on the Security Council or involved with other aspects.
I can only tell you why America's leadership makes its decisions, whether I agree with them or not.
That's all I do.

Rwanda is a BAD EXAMPLE to use ...

Nightfly said:

I fail to see why European countries and the United States "suck" simply because they're not able to solve every fucking problem in the world.

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It's not as simple as that.
Uh oh, here's some of that "depth"--er, I mean "off-topic" coming out ...

Nightfly said:

The world bashes the USA and Britain for removing Saddam Hussein and helping the people of Iraq reassemble without a tyranny in place...

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The media and it's rhetoric does, yes.
The people proliferating that rhetoric further does, yes.
But there's far more too it.

In the case of Iraq, you're ignoring the plausable scenarios introduced by invading.
You've got the Turks-Kurds, the Shites-Sunnies and the whole Iran-Shite connection.
The Kurds want a homeland, and the Turks are ready to commit genocide if they get it.
The Shites are setting borders for the Sunni districts away from oil reserves and the Sunnis are just trying to get some say -- in the wrong way.

Most leaders in the region did not want the US to invade not merely because of the fact that we would be invading in the middle east, but because they feared we would leave early and leave a vacuum.
Indeed the US population now believes civil war is inevitable, Iraq can never be united in a fair and equal democracy among the 3 major groups and wants to begin pulling out.

And that's just the beginning.

Nightfly said:

Sure, there are loads of problems over there, and I don't fully support the operation - certainly not anymore,

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Did you just catch what you said?
Do you realize the significance of what you just said?
I wasn't for going in, but once we went in, I understood the significance of staying in!

Now I might be almost in my mid-'30s, but there will be a time in the near future I might be called.
I won't go because I believe in it, but I will go because A) we did it, and if we don't finish it, someone else will (in the wrong way) and B) I don't want a kid who hasn't lived the 12 more years I have to die when I could instead of him.

Nightfly said:

but why is it that successful, well-to-do countries are RESPONSIBLE for solving the world's problems???

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That's the wrong attitude to have.
Look, I'm niether picking on you nor do I want to, but it's clear you don't pay much attention to detail here.
You want to simplify things in black'n white and it just isn't the case.

Nightfly said:

Are people in other parts of the world inherently less intelligent and unable to stop caveman-type behavor? No. The problem is that they have deep-rooted histories and feuds and some have poorly-formed and conceived governments. That's why we call them "developing nations."

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And who do you think created the two groups in Rwanda?
Belgian Imperialist!

Should we visit India and the British?
The French, Spanish, etc...?
Heck, the French were still re-claiming their imperalist colonies after WWII, and used it as a "bargaining chip" against the US and UK when it came to joining NATO!

Now I'm not proud of American history in many aspects.
Sometimes the reason we weren't more "old style imperialist" was because we got into the game too late.
Probably the greatest testament to this was the US' "first Vietnam" in the post-"Spanish-American War" Philippine Islands.
But even the Philippinos, despite not being allowed to form their own government, agreed that American education in the American way was far more preferrable than the Spanish "keep'em dumb and slave labor."

Nightfly said:

Where were the Asian countries during this Rwandan (which is perpetual, tribal, gruesome warfare) genocide? Where was Australia? Where were Central and South American countries? Why are the E.U. and USA to blame for all of this mess?

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The Belgians setup the system long ago, so they are the root cause.
The USA, namely the Clinton administration, with its veto power is to blame for blocking the UN Security Council from sending in much needed peace-keepers until much later (after much of the initial and greatest genocide).

Now in defense of the Clinton administration, it's all hindsight now.
Just like Bin Laden and other things during his term.
Clinton was a naive and ignorant Commander-in-Chief his first term.
In fact, one of the scariest moments was when a woman walked up to him at a public event just after the Mogudishu killings and said "the blood of our boys is on your hands" and Clinton had her arrested.
The media didn't report that.
And it wasn't until 1998 that he finally realized that everything -- from terrorism and Bin Laden to Iraq and North Korea -- were some of his greatest fuck-ups.

But, again, it's all hindsight -- even if I think it was wrong and politically motivated at times -- especially in his first 2 years.

Nightfly said:

I'm sick of people thinking that the USA and the E.U. are to blame for not solving every massive problem in the world. I actually heard some asshole say that the USA should have stopped the Asian tsunami of December 26, 2004. :thefinger

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Okay, I hear you on the Tsunami.
The US was the only nation actually delivering food and materials immediately while other countries did the "pledge shuffle."
The US ended up contributing far more in not just dollars, but actual services (by a huge margin -- even in total, exponentially more!).
The US DARPA (you know, a good chuck of that "defense spending" budget) is building the world's largest WAN -- 2 million nodes -- to monitor much of the south Pacific and inner Asian seas.
This net really doesn't do much for Hawaii at all either.

Nightfly said:

We have the United Nations (which has problems of its own) and its troops are deployed in all areas of the world to try to stop these messes, but these countries must be accountable themselves. We can help them set up a foundation of civilization, but we cannot run their world and bail their asses out every time some faction decides to attack another faction.

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Be careful with that statement.
The US relies on resources from around the world.
We get involved with conflicts out of national security reasons.
And we often avoid conflicts for the lack of the same.
I could easily see how that can be "two faced" at times.

And given the history of the British from WWII and earlier, some might think we're just more of the same.
And given many facts, it's hard to argue with that position -- especially being an American who recognizes how inter-twined the US and UK economies are.
Especially the foundation of the US Federal Reserve and the UK Bank of England, and the currency exchange and flow that sets up the world's standard.

Nightfly said:

I'd bet that if the USA dropped 10,000 troops in Rwanda back then that we'd be bashed for "invading" the country rather than praised for helping to stop the tribal feud.

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Now you're just being argumentative.

Nightfly said:

We can't win in the eyes of some public opinion despite our goodwill efforts all over the globe, and threads/opinions like this piss me off. They're ignorant and unappreciative of the humanitarian efforts that we do put forth.

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I agree with you in general, but in the case of Rwanda, you've picked a bad time to argue this point.

Nightfly said:

LOL! I'm argumentative... Good one.

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I said one of your statements was argumentative.
I even note and admit when I'm argumentative too!

Nightfly said:

I discuss and offer my opinions and thoughts - I don't try to prove everyone wrong and talk about how intelligent I am. lol You seem to revel in doing that.

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No, I revel in getting into the details.

You want to see everything in "black'n white" and it's not.
As an American, I have to admit where we have done wrong -- W., Clinton, H. Bush, Reagan, etc...
We, the US, solely preventing anything from happening in Rwanda until after most of the genocide.

So, as I said, you picked a hell of a time to make your point!
I did agree with you, however, on other points you made that weren't about Rwanda.
Give me some credit, I do agree with some of your points!

But on Rwanda, we preventing the UN from acting at the worst time.
I explained why, not trying to demonize Clinton, but explain why he did.
H. Bush got us into Somalia, and Clinton was still smarting from his first action there.

Nightfly said:

You've tried to nit-pick and counter damn-near every post I've made in the last 3 days,

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Likewise! You have done the same to be too in other threads.
But I've agreed with you in a few threads as well.
I'm not just countering you anymore than others.

Again, if you want to apply simple thought, rhetoric and politically/media-driven commentary, then I'm going to expand upon the details on why you shouldn't.
That's all.
If you think I'm here "just sporting my knowledge" with details, then I really pity you.
I'm just trying to present details that you have not considered.

Nightfly said:

Prof., but hey, I enjoy the discussions, just not the arrogance and self-important, egocentric rhetoric.

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What "rhetoric" am I providing?
In fact, I'm one of the very few people actually explaining things here!
I'm actually between the issues, thinking "outside the box," and I do not blindly align my thoughts on political view.

Ack, forget it, no one can just read what I say because it doesn't fit their agenda.
The funny thing is, I'm often between two conflicting agenda and no one likes me because I won't "take a stand" on political grounds.